EP 16 | PATRICK DONOHOE | WHAT WILL HAPPEN TO THE ECONOMY

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Hosted by
ANDREW LANOIE
Patrick Donohoe is my guest today. He is the host of The Wealth Standard podcast and author of “Heads I Win Tails You Lose”, and one of the smartest guys I know. With a background in economics and marketing, he is passionate about teaching individuals about financial strategies outside of Wall Street. Enjoy the conversation!

I look at just how people have been conditioned to manage their money and for what end and I believe that those are not healthy ways to do it.

FIND | PATRICK DONOHOE

BOOK | https://thewealthstandard.com/
PODCAST | https://headsortailsiwin.com/
FACEBOOK | https://www.facebook.com/thewealthstandard/”

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FULL TRANSCRIPTION:

[INTRO]

Hey, everyone. I’m super excited for today’s episode. I’ve got my good friend, Patrick Donohoe on who is the host of the wealth standard podcast. Very popular podcast. And also the author of heads I win, tails you lose, we go pretty deep on this one and hope you guys enjoy the conversation. 

Andrew: Hey Patrick, glad to have you on the show. And, how are you doing?


Patrick Donohoe: Oh, you know, I am living the dream, living the new dream. I’m good, Andrew, how are you doing man?

Andrew: Same thing. As much as I almost dislike the phrase, the new normal, that’s certainly what it’s become right. 

Patrick Donohoe: You know, life is not linear and it never has been, but yet, even though we all hope that it was, so good test, good test for humanity.

Andrew: I would say so. One of the first things to kind of just dive into, so we’re here in, we’re in July of 2020 in, I guess, about four months deep into Corona virus and Covid-19, and just interesting to kind of talk through the, where we are in the market and kind of the state of the economy. I actually spoke to someone last week or the week before, who was in salt Lake where you’re based and said, boy, you know, it’s such interesting times we’re talking about price points for single family homes and here in Phoenix, if you’ve got something that’s kind of in the 300 to 350 range, something like that, below a jumbo mortgage, there’s 20 offers on that home. Things are moving really fast. Interest rates are absolutely at a historical low. We’re in this strange pandemic. I don’t think we’re really in a recession. But the real estate market is hot right now. Certainly, I mean, if you’re a multifamily owner, a great time to sell. If you’re thinking about selling, if you’re a residential homeowner, a lot of competition in that market, maybe what are you seeing in whether it’s specific to salt Lake or just in general? What are you seeing on just kind of through your eyes and your lens?

Patrick Donohoe: Well, we definitely have different things going on, depending on who you’re talking about. And I think you can identify the different socioeconomic classes. And right now, I think it’s too early to tell because there were some who were prepared. And what I mean by prepared was they were financially prepared, but there are also some from a business standpoint who were prepared, it’s such an amazing time where you can see you have the most volume of people purchasing stuff, but yet all retailers are going bankrupt, major retailers, publicly traded retailers. So you have a lot of interesting things going on right now. You have chaos in the urban sectors and then huge booms in the suburban sectors because of, the majority of companies that have been able to adapt and go remote with their employment or with their workforce, I am not going to pay all this rent in the city for a $500 or 500 square foot apartment, I’m going to go to the suburbs. So it’s really interesting. I think we’re still in the middle of the shift. I would say the variable that I’m paying most attention to is just, who’s at the helm directing the, I would say supplement of the economy, which is the central banks around the world where the government has been tapping those to provide unemployment benefits that weren’t there. They are using that to do a business stimulus and that money is still circulating. And so if it didn’t exist, we will be in a totally different economy. But because that does exist, it’s kind of like artificially kept things at Bay. And so as I look at things, I just reserve myself to not trying to make a predictions because at this point, fundamentals are kind of out the window in a sense, and you have a third party influence and power, central banks, government to essentially take what should be an objective signal and make it totally subjective and going in the other direction.

Andrew: Yeah, it’s pretty interesting. So back on maybe labor costs there’s been some really predictions and studies are, really predictions that have come out that said construction and labor costs are going to be drastically reduced on the other side of this. And obviously with, I haven’t seen the last numbers, but we’ve got to be pretty close to 50 million jobless claims in four month period. And I think when I looked at the, some of the historicals on it, maybe just a trailing 12, it might’ve been a couple of hundred thousand a month. So obviously that’s just a massive jump. It doesn’t directly mean that it doesn’t directly tie to unemployment and what that percentage is now, but it’s certainly a huge number. So you think for someone, and this is interesting when I talk to other business owners, someone who’s making minimum wage and they’re making more money sitting at home, not working if they were laid off, how do you think that affects maybe labor in the future? Few of the things that we’ve talked about is, and this goes back to office buildings is, if you’ve sent all your employees home and you’re not really working in an office anymore and indefinitely, depending on what state you’re in, is there a massive opportunity in the office building space on the other side of this, just meaning, Hey, you can get much more bang for your buck. And then there’s some schools of thoughts on labor specifically and the person who is making $80,000 a year that is struggling to find a job. Maybe it’s a $50,000 salary on the other side of this. Do you have any thoughts on that? 


Patrick Donohoe: Yeah, I’ll talk about those that are making more minimum wage and that different, I would say socioeconomic class, which I think is, it’s a big issue because the unintended consequence of providing, benefits that incentivize somebody to stay home instead of go out and get a job. I think they’re very short term. Because I think part of human nature is that we want to, we don’t want like the scraps on the table. Naturally, we want to earn, I mean, there may be some of that out there. At the same time I think most people are wired for that. And right now you’re essentially robbing people of figuring out how to adapt, cause you’re just giving them money, you’re not giving them incentive other than to stay home and continue to maybe spend on the different lifestyle expenses that they have. But you’re also positioning businesses so that when things come back and unemployment benefits run out, the job may not be there. That’s another nature of entrepreneurs and business owners where they try to figure out ways to adapt and be efficient. And if they no longer have people working for them, they’re going to figure out how to stay in business or go out of business or restructure their business through bankruptcy. But when the unintended consequences that when the economy opens up, the quarantines are lifted, restrictions are lifted. The jobs that were there when they were unemployed will no longer be there when they come back. So that’s the first thing. I also look at just space and real estate. I knew that the whole remote, my lease, I have a five-year what was ended up being six, but six years in the lease I’m in right now, I’m in the final year. And we have 30,000 square feet and I sublease about 10,000. And then, the rest was, it was just a deal that was too good to be true. Because the building owners change when we renewed the lease and they just gave us a killer deal to stay. Cause we were the anchor tenant, but now I have zero people here in [07:53 inaudible] having had them here for four years. So I don’t have to pay for parking. I don’t have to pay for food. And there’s also an increase in productivity and happiness, people have adapted to it. And so when my lease is up, it’s going to be totally, totally different. And I’m not the only one, but I still think that there’s going to be relevance in office space, at the same time it’s a new world. And so the use of space who knows, I mean, I look at entertainment being, something that’s going to someplace and having physical entertainment is going to be, definitely something that increases. But for me right now, I mean, I think real estate is definitely getting a deck shuffle, especially in the retail and commercial space, not residential commercial, but the retail space, the office space.

Andrew: Yeah. What’s so interesting too, is there was a statistic I saw on, something, the effect of over 50% of department stores and malls are predicted to close at the end of 2021. And you look at the, just the physical footprint of a mall, those are massive, right. And even if you look at like the circuit cities and some of those companies that filed for bankruptcy previously, and now, who would have thought someone like an Amazon would come in and buy those as fulfillment centers and, it’s so interesting what’s happening with real estate just on that side.

Patrick Donohoe: I think it’s becoming, it’s becoming very akin to the Airbnb model. And I don’t think Airbnb is a great example right now because obviously, that business has its challenges just because of demand due to due to restrictions. But the same time it’s like Amazon, Amazon is just a platform, and obviously they make their own product, but it’s allowed, smaller entrepreneurial minded people to go in and provide services at a much more efficient level, whether it’s electronics, whether it’s clothing, whether it’s bundling. I mean, there’s a whole fascinating universe of e-commerce that is where people have gone to, to spend money and away from the big box, the big retailers, circuit city, best buy, you name it. I mean there’s a shift there, which is really fascinating to observe, but this again, it just goes to how we all evolve and innovators as a human race. And so that’s where I think the disruption, isn’t a bad thing. It’s really caused a shock to the system. And now people are at work figuring out how to solve problems, which I think is fascinating. And I’m frankly, I think in large part government intervention stipples that, and I understand why they do it and that’s really all the tools they have in their toolbox. And they’re always the ones that are kind of knighted to solve all the problems. So the way in which they’re doing it, I’m not surprised by it. But at the same time, you still have a lot of stuff going on behind the scenes, from the entrepreneur community, the tech community that is making things more efficient, more beneficial. And we haven’t necessarily seen the outcome of that yet, but yet it’s all emotions, that should be really interesting to observe as well and see how, what happens with a lot of these big bankruptcies that are going on and what ends up being the result. I’ll give you an example though.  It’s interesting with a lot of the, JC penny bankruptcies or bankruptcy, you have a lot of other big companies. I mean, bankruptcy is, I think it’s a very misunderstood idea with most people, bankruptcy is not failure. Bankruptcy is essentially, renegotiating contracts. It’s taking debts, taking assets and coming to an agreement on, how to disperse the assets among those that are, creditors, but you’re seeing a lot of very prominent marketing and ecommerce people go in and buy some of these assets, whether it’s supply chain or whether it’s intellectual property and they’re taking modern marketing techniques and they’re taking modern e-commerce techniques and they’re crushing it. But you still see, JC penny television commercials trying to sell like, kids t-shirts, it’s just fascinating to observe just how stark of a difference there is with the common, conventional wisdom of how businesses, corporations should be run versus how the entrepreneur community is throwing on its head and doing totally different.

Andrew: Yeah, it’s interesting too. And through the last, speaking of innovation to the last downturn, the subprime crash, you had companies like Airbnb and Uber, so really were born during that time. And so now there’s all kinds of problems that didn’t exist four months ago that people are furiously trying to solve. So it’ll be really interesting in the next 6, 12, 18 months, maybe two years to see kind of what surfaces, so our mutual friend, Jason Hartman talks about, he’s been big on the population migration, which is interesting. I think he had said that approximately 84% of people live in urban areas, will that trend continue or is there a migration away from these dense metros, like in New York City. One thing that I thought several years ago, especially in the affordable housing business and secondary and tertiary markets was there might have been a case to say, look there’s a trend of, if you’re in this tiny one horse town in the Midwest and Dallas, Texas has jobs and you can’t find a job where you are. I mean, maybe Michigan’s a good example of that or Detroit, well guess what, you’re going to move to Dallas, you’re going to move to where the jobs are, but we’re kind of seeing some interesting things that are the opposite about that. Just like Jason had talked about like I certainly wouldn’t want to be living in New York City right now. And even further to that, I don’t know if I’d want to be in a big apartment complex right now. So it’s pretty interesting. What are you seeing on that? Or what’s your take?

Patrick Donohoe: I still think we’re in the middle of it. And at the same time, you know, what is your understanding of human nature make you believe about how people will react to the situation? So I look at, yeah, there’s definitely a population, a segment of the population that likes urban society, but there are many people that live in urban society. It is not worth it to them, not worth the cost, not worth the hassle. If you grew up there, I can see how there’s an affinity there, but a lot of people grew up in suburbs, about middle-class areas. And so they have that kind of in their bones and they want to go back to that. And this is a perfect opportunity to do that, but still maintain a good career. I mean, I have a mentor that lives in the middle of freaking nowhere in Texas and that’s where she loves to live. They have a pond and a Lake and she does all of her business online. I think that those who are able to adapt to that have now been able to, I would say, position their lifestyle around their business, as opposed to or their businesses around their lifestyle, as opposed to what it was before, which is their lifestyle was around their business. So I think it’s a really interesting shift. And I saw it going in this direction regardless. Now even more, so people are going to go live where they want to live, where provides a fulfilling lifestyle and not have to just, be subject to going to specific areas because there’s a job there, which is really interesting. That’s going to totally throw things on their head because you got to remember like real estate isn’t just like, Hey, let’s go build an apartment complex. I mean, real estate. It’s like, alright, you got to find the area to do all the due diligence and you got to get permits and you got to get approved here and approved here by the land, rezone the land. I mean, there’s years in some cases of time that’s spent on, creating a big project. And now it’s just interesting that, the projects continue, even though we’re in like the middle of like people moving and there’s huge immigrations everywhere. So I don’t know, I just find it fascinating to observe what’s going on trying to rationalize it and understand it, to see where the opportunities are. I’ve just kind of stepped back and try not to force that and just hope that through networking and through the minds of others, podcasts like yours is where I can start to find some awesome opportunities.

Andrew: Yeah, that’s great. We talked a little bit about some of the industries that are in trouble right now. Obviously office buildings are empty across the board, horrible time to be an office building owner Airbnb, hotels, tourism, all been relatively decimated kind of, depending on where you look. Retail, obviously non-essential retail, like restaurants who are on razor thin margins that now that being forced to open 50% or even being shut back down again. What are you seeing just as far as you’re probably looking at several things, then of course the, I have good friends in the concert. The concert business was, which has just completely wiped out, sports. They’re trying to bring back, certain sports now, which is interesting. 

Patrick Donohoe: No fans, no sounds no reaction. It’s crazy.

Andrew: I mean, it’s crazy. So what are the things that you’re kind of noticing just in general, who’s kind of who’s in trouble. I mean, back to what we started talking about, we’re not really in a recession, I don’t think. And the market is up and real estate is screaming hot. But what are you seeing as far as just kind of who’s in trouble and what things are you thinking about or noticing.

Patrick Donohoe: You nailed it. I look at everything that people did before that involves being around multiple people. The psychology, I don’t think is going to go away for a while. And the psychology is people are afraid because they’ve been made afraid. Cause there’s just as much argument that, it is on one side than the other. And I’m not going to get into that because both sides have merit. At the same time, the psychology of people, typically cling closer to fear than they do on pleasure and optimism. So, I look at, the psychological damage is done. So you hit the nail on the head. Arenas, big conferences, I don’t see that happening for a while. Tony Robbins, so I’m part of, been part of his platinum community for a couple of years now. And, even him, the guy that is incredibly understanding of human psychology and behavior and mindset, like he had such a rough time like cancel this, but okay, let’s try to reschedule to an area that’s open, well, that doesn’t work again. Let’s go to this area. Let’s go to that area until the point it’s like, it’s not possible. So he actually orchestrated last week, the biggest zoom meeting in history, which was like 24,000 people. So I think you have those that are kind of pushing the limits because what’s the purpose of going to a conference. What’s the purpose of going to a concert, I think once you start to understand the end result of why people go and replicate that in a way that aligns with this new psychology, that’s where all the opportunity is, but you hit the nail on the head, transportation, is completely going to change. I would say entertainment where there’s big groups is going to totally change. Sports is going to totally change. So yeah, I don’t know what the end result is going to be at the same time. Everyone loves sports. Everyone loves concerts. Everyone loves entertainment. They love to have fun. They like to experience one another, like to be with family and experience family and go to nice places. So it’s kind of like the end result is what people still desire, but the psychology of the risk to actually get that has been changed. The risks may no longer be worth the reward.

Andrew: Yeah. That’s pretty great. And obviously those live events or a conference or anything like that, it’s energy, it’s rubbing elbows and you’re not going to get the same energy necessarily from watching Tony Robbins on a zoom. But obviously they’re trying to replicate that. 


Patrick Donohoe: Surprisingly enough, I was surprised by how well he did. And this is zoom. Zoom was kind of like put to the test. I mean, talk about, there was like something like 200 rooms or something like that of 200 people, it was insane. And he was able to create some connection. It’s not the same. I mean, it wasn’t the same as being there in person, at the same time I mean, I would gut say 80% there and I think it could be improved potentially. You never know. But I look at, the nature of relationship is changing. I haven’t seen any of my employees for four and a half months, yet because we do our daily standups, we have our weekly meetings. We do, zoom, I have this massive screen in front of me right now. I get to see them, experience them, hear about their stories, and see their pictures on our workplace by Facebook, business intranet. I still feel connected to them even though it’s not the same. So I think there’s, technology is definitely the industry that is going to provide a lot of the solutions. There’s no way around that. The wheels are in motion. It’s just to see how they do it. But yeah, I think from a real estate standpoint, if the majority of people here are real estate investors, and that’s where they’re trying to build wealth, it’s really going to be the result of what people want and the risk that they’re going to take to actually get what they want. But I lean toward you. People are wanting their childhood home. They want more space. They don’t want to be confined. They, want a beautiful place to live, a better climate. They want community, but not community where you’re squeezed in like sardines. So I think that’s really understanding the human behavior side of things and what people were actually trying to achieve is that, and then realizing kind of the way in which it was done before and how it’s being innovated to remove the risk and remove the friction. That’s where all the opportunity is going to be. 


Andrew: Yeah, that’s a great point. One of the things that we talk about on the show is generational wealth and I really believe there are a couple components to that and one is financial legacy and the other is knowledge like legacy. And I know you have a family and just wanted to kind of pose that question to you is what does that mean to you? You’ve got several companies, you’ve got some other things we’re going to talk about after this, but you also have a family, maybe what generational wealth really means to you. Leaving a legacy behind, maybe talk about that a bit.

Patrick Donohoe: This is, it’s something that I don’t think is important to certain people until a certain point of their life. And so I could be totally wrong on this. At the same time, Abraham Maslow, a famous psychologist, created the hierarchy of needs and essentially showed through his career how people need to meet certain needs before they progress to other kind of elevated needs. So physiological is first, food, shelter, clothing, safety is second, safety of a community, safety of a country. You look at immigration to the United States, illegal immigration, people come here because they don’t feel safe in the areas that they’re in. So they naturally are compelled physically to flee to a place where they feel safe. Then you have, your relationships, then you have your significance. And self-identification that you have a role in the world, but then it goes to this next level, which is the self-actualization. And I think a lot more people are there. We live in a very abundant country. I mean, even those that make minimum wage that, to have enough to pay bills and live kind of a basic lifestyle live just in an incredible time where we have so much entertainment, we have the ability to communicate, we have solutions to different sicknesses and ailments. So I look at that and I think people are able to get to that self-actualized phase sooner than later. And it becomes almost this shift, this shift where you realize that your satisfaction, fulfillment is the result of making the biggest difference with others. And when you do that, when that shift takes place, I think that’s when the idea of generational wealth is important to you, wanting to make a difference, wanting to leave your Mark on the world. And, I don’t think it has to be that way, Andrew, but at least that’s been my experience.  If you’re living paycheck to paycheck, if you’re, you don’t have savings and you’re worried, I don’t think, you tend to think about yourself and think about maybe your family to an extent. So difficult to make that leap, but when you do, I think life takes on totally new meaning. And I think that’s probably by design. But that’s where, I would say leadership principles take hold where you want to impact and influence the lives of other people. And there’s a role for that in business, definitely in politics, because there’s a huge lack of that. But then also just in your neighborhood, within your family, it makes a huge difference. So I think generational wealth, money is just a measurement of value. It’s not the value itself. And, I look at the principles that really have a person understand what fulfills them in life is essentially identifying who they are, what they’ve been given as a strength or talent or ability, and then making a difference in the lives of other people. And usually that’s where a lot of wealth comes from, financial wealth. So that’s where I think the starting place is. And that’s where I’ve tried to convey to my kids. And this has just been a great four months where I’ve been able to have really deep and meaningful conversations with them and help them understand kind of what’s going on and why things are the way that they are, why there’s certain reactions the way, but I’ve also allowed, it’s allowed me to talk more about financial things with them, especially my two teenagers. So my two teenage girls, everybody has a concept of money. And so it’s been interesting just to understand their concept of money. And I had to write a letter to them a few months ago, because they were getting stir crazy. They were being rude to Cynthia and being mean to their little brother, my six year old. And so I wrote a letter because my wife, she grew up with absolutely nothing. She grew up in the hood of Mexico, a cinderblock home with concrete floors. She never had her own bed, never had her own bedroom, never had a birthday party, and never had Christmas. And, I felt compelled to write that just so it provided, another kind of wider spectrum for them to understand the life that they live, just being in the United States and living in a really safe city. Because sometimes we don’t value, we don’t value that. And so I think those lessons are more valuable than any money that you can give. Because I think money just magnifies who a person already is. And so I think the greatest wealth that could be transferred is the understanding of the different principles that lead to a fulfilling life. It doesn’t mean that you’re going to be fulfilled the same way as someone else. In fact, I think it’s all going to be different, but it’s the principles associated with that. And then it’s for them, my older daughter, she’s had a rough time with fitting in with her classmates in school. She was in high school as a freshmen this past year. And it was hard on her because she’s very social. She loves people, but yet, you know how kids are when they’re going through puberty, they’re horrible to each other, but it’s understanding, really their role in society and understanding self-love, self-important and not necessarily needing the universe to align the way they want to in order for them to be happy. And that right there, I think made a huge difference, at the same time, only time will tell. So I think money, what that does is it’ll magnify, what a person already understands about money would then understand about life, because you have really wealthy people, successful people that end up killing themselves. Because they didn’t understand the tenants or dynamic of what success is supposed to give you. And so I look at, what I’ve used as my life lessons, and I’m constantly writing things down, taking a journal, I use day one app, which is an amazing journal service where you can do like little audio entries, pictures, it links up to your social media. So you can automatically store pictures. Those things are important to me, but the deep conversations and meaningful relationship that I’m trying to create with them is what I believe is going to make the biggest difference, whether or not I leave money behind. And if I do leave money behind, the principals will be there for them to use it for good as opposed to, as opposed to not because money definitely is not the master. 

Andrew: That’s really powerful.  And just curious, what made you decide to write a letter to your daughters? I mean, we’re in 2020 that’s such an interesting and unique formats. What was kind of the thought process behind that? 

Patrick Donohoe: Well, first, yeah. I mean, Jocko Willink. I really like that guy. I mean, I try to follow these like different leadership styles, like, you’ve got a Jocko Willink, who’s this like hardcore, freaking Navy seal guy, then you got the Simon Sinek who’s kind of like the more happy and influential guy and then you have others, like Deepak Chopra has written about, leadership. So I’ve really tried to kind of hone in on what leadership really is and what is my style of leadership and refine that. So some ideas that were based on some of those books, where I really wanted to create spectrum for them. Because the spectrum of their view of the world is very narrow. They wake up same day, day in, day out, and they experience life in a very similar way. And they don’t have the breadth of experience of like what it’s like to live in a different city, what it’s like to live in a different culture, what it’s like to live in a different socioeconomic position. And so the spectrum, what it did I believe is to help them understand the value of where they are and what their mother really wants for them. And I think it’s not, it wasn’t a harsh letter to them, but it was my point was to help them be sober about really what they were doing and be more conscious of it. And it helped a little, but they’re still teenagers. So, the point wasn’t to make a short term difference, the point was to create kind of a disruptive moment where they thought about their actions at a different level. And hopefully that will manifest in different forms over the course of time, but you know, who knows?

Andrew: Yeah, it’s really powerful because I think the key was disruptive there. Because you’re having conversations. And just like you had said before, probably more so than ever, just because you’re spending so much time together during all of this. So certainly a very disruptive to do that. And I would think that’s in a very positive way.

Patrick Donohoe: Yeah. And we’ve also had conversations, man, this is maybe not something that would be appropriate here, but the amount of predators that are, infiltrating the lives of kids is like, it’s usually increased. And so we’ve had some very interesting conversations about that. And we have really limited social media, put some restrictions and presented things in a way that that helps them, but also not hides, what’s going on from them. And that’s been, those have also been interesting conversations. Kids kind of know what’s going on. And if you try to hide things from them, I think they come up with like, why are they hiding things from them? And they place a meaning on it, which I don’t think is always healthy.

Andrew: Yeah, that’s incredible. Really the last thing, just to talk about, you wrote a book pretty recently called heads I win, tails you lose, it’s a really great book. We’re going to have the link in the show notes here, but maybe just talk a little bit about some time leading up to writing that book and publishing that book. And obviously it’s a massive for someone who’s never gone through it. So it was probably, I’m guessing was an idea in your head for a while. And maybe just talk about the process and what the book is about. 

Patrick Donohoe: Yeah. I know there’s a lot of people that are writing books these days. And personally my belief was, I didn’t want to write something just to write it. Like I wanted to write something that really represented what I believed about certain things, the business I’m in, it was started in 2007 and it’s been a really interesting journey over the years. And so I wrote the book in 2017 into 2018 and it came out in 2018. But what I wanted to show is, the experience I’ve had with people, the experience I’ve had with, what are the financial strategies that work and we share a very similar philosophy, if not identical philosophy about finance. And what I tried to do is, you know, present the case, not in an attacking condescending way, but present the case for how things have evolved and that what people are doing is not necessarily wrong. But the environment has changed. And I look at just how people have been conditioned to manage their money and for what end and I believe that those are not healthy ways to do it. And it’s also not the end that people really want because they end up sacrificing a tremendous amount of time, energy now for this, mythical like future that who knows how it’s going to be, but yet they have this picture in their mind of how it’s going to be. And it’s just not going to be that way, but yet all the sacrifice that goes into the here and now for that end. And I look at, just really the happier people, the most successful people that I know and what they’re doing differently. And then just presented case studies because the idea that quote heads I win, tails you lose, it’s an older quote that basically says, how do you set up your life? How do you set up a framework so that you will win, regardless of what happens in the environment. And that’s the place I wrote the book from, and there are certain strategies in there, but honestly, Andrew, the strategy that is, I would say most beneficial to people from the feedback that I got is simply the understanding of a person’s career and what they do for a living. Like I said before, I think it shifted, the career idea is, people worked to or live to work, not work to live. I think it’s changing. And now a days, like there’s so much opportunity to design an incredible lifestyle around work, as opposed to the other way around. But that shift there’s these like seeds of like, this is what I want. This is what I want. This is what I want, which is retirement. I want to retire. I want, but they never unpack what that really means and what they really want. Once they do, the strategies that most people use these days are not designed for them. They’re designed for that mythical future.

Andrew: Yeah. That’s such a great term. I think, I feel like that just mythical future just speaks volumes, and I say all the time, the American dream is dead as we know it now, what worked for our grandparents just doesn’t work today. So you have all these things moving at different speeds. You have technology, you have just incredible to kind of sit back and watch. And there’s just a lot of people that one of our, I can’t remember who said this, some of the effect of people spend more time planning their vacation than they do their financial future. So that’s powerful. So we’ll leave a copy of the, a link to the book in the show notes. And I just want to thank you for spending some time. It’s always awesome to talk with you and get your insights on what’s happening currently. So appreciate you coming on the show.

Patrick Donohoe: Appreciate you, man. Its like, those that step out and actually spread a message that they care about, it’s inspiring. So thank you for what you’re doing, setting this up and all that. And I know the work that goes into it, and it’s not easy. But I know the place from what you’re doing in. And so it’s really commendable, man. So congrats.

Andrew: Yeah. Thank you. Appreciate it. All right. Thanks everyone.

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Episode 16